Alison dijo [Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 07:41:00PM +0000]:
Hola todos/todas!
Hi!
Just by absolute chance, I entered today to look for some information on the Tor Project site, and came across this list. Immediately subscribed and hooked! :-D
I'm answering to a couple of the points in this list's opening mail.
- Create local Tor meetups and have Tor Project provide resources
(money, people, other materials)
- Hold the Tor Meeting in the Global South
(...)
- More Tor infrastructure in the Global South (relays, DirAuths,
BWAuths, etc)
Wow! This fits us perfectly. I'm just starting a group effort to get some students to work on Tor in the University I work at (Facultad de Ingeniería, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México), setting up at least a relay, but quite probably a full exit node... Lets see how this develops. But so far, it looks like I *have* to be in this list :)
One thing I'd like to prioritize personally is holding the Tor Meeting in the Global South. We discussed some possible locations and some of the metrics we'd need to consider in identifying good places. Those metrics include:
- overall cost
- visa requirements
- length of travel from the EU and the US/Canada (though we will
consider this, we discussed how people in the Global South have had to deal with long travel times to the EU for all past meetings, so if we find a good place that is a great distance from the EU, so be it)
Ummm... Well, having a meeting in the Global South (lets be pragmatic: As I understand it, it mostly means "in Latin America") is complicated enough as our distances are way larger than what Europeans are used to (and USA-ians often frown upon international travel, mainly to this "underdeveloped backyard")...
Don't you think it's more important to hold this in a place where Latin Americans can travel to more easily? Getting some tens of Europeans or USA-ians won't be too hard. Moving Latin Americans is usually tougher, as money has a different scale and all...
- internet speeds
- possible conference center locations
- Tor's relationship to the local community (the relationship as it
exists, and opportunities to build it more)
Any other data points that we should consider? Anyone want to throw out some initial ideas for host cities? Some of the cities already discussed a bit include Quito, Mexico City, São Paulo, and Lima. There was some rough consensus that South America is the best first place for a meeting in the South, but it would be great to hear from people who disagree on that.
I jumped upon reading this. As I explained in my previous paragraph, even though I'd *love* it to be in Mexico City, I think we are too much on the edge of the region. Also, our country is not (by far) the most visa-friendly to Latin Americans.
But, FWIW, if Mexico were to be chosen (and you don't have any better contacts in here), I can provide (with 90% probability) very good facilities at my workplace, the country's largest university, either at a research institute or at a faculty surrounded by eager students.
On 21 Apr 2017, at 14:32, Gunnar Wolf gwolf@gwolf.org wrote:
Alison dijo [Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 07:41:00PM +0000]:
Hola todos/todas!
Hi!
Just by absolute chance, I entered today to look for some information on the Tor Project site, and came across this list. Immediately subscribed and hooked! :-D
I'm answering to a couple of the points in this list's opening mail.
- Create local Tor meetups and have Tor Project provide resources
(money, people, other materials)
- Hold the Tor Meeting in the Global South
(...)
- More Tor infrastructure in the Global South (relays, DirAuths,
BWAuths, etc)
Wow! This fits us perfectly. I'm just starting a group effort to get some students to work on Tor in the University I work at (Facultad de Ingeniería, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México), setting up at least a relay, but quite probably a full exit node... Lets see how this develops. But so far, it looks like I *have* to be in this list :)
This sounds great!
But it might be hard. Some Mexican ISPs block Tor. They stop relays connecting to the tor directory authorities. So people in Mexico tell us their relays do not work.
Tor clients still work. They use fallback directories, which are harder to block.
Does your university block the Tor directory authorities? Does it use an ISP that blocks Tor?
...
- internet speeds
- possible conference center locations
- Tor's relationship to the local community (the relationship as it
exists, and opportunities to build it more)
Any other data points that we should consider? Anyone want to throw out some initial ideas for host cities? Some of the cities already discussed a bit include Quito, Mexico City, São Paulo, and Lima. There was some rough consensus that South America is the best first place for a meeting in the South, but it would be great to hear from people who disagree on that.
I jumped upon reading this. As I explained in my previous paragraph, even though I'd *love* it to be in Mexico City, I think we are too much on the edge of the region. Also, our country is not (by far) the most visa-friendly to Latin Americans.
But, FWIW, if Mexico were to be chosen (and you don't have any better contacts in here), I can provide (with 90% probability) very good facilities at my workplace, the country's largest university, either at a research institute or at a faculty surrounded by eager students.
This seems like it might work. And it is closer to the US and Europe.
But we need a hotel and venue that do not block Tor clients. In Mexico we risk some ISPs blocking Tor clients as well as relays.
Are there ISPs in Mexico that allow Tor?
T -- Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n xmpp: teor at torproject dot org ------------------------------------------------------------------------
teor dijo [Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 02:43:46PM +1000]:
This sounds great!
But it might be hard. Some Mexican ISPs block Tor. They stop relays connecting to the tor directory authorities. So people in Mexico tell us their relays do not work.
Umh, I don't know about this issue. What I know is that my personal (home) connection is with the largest ISP (Telmex / Infinitum), and I was able to run a Tor relay for some time at home, no issues.
Tor clients still work. They use fallback directories, which are harder to block.
Does your university block the Tor directory authorities? Does it use an ISP that blocks Tor?
How do you suggest me to check this? So far, I have only used Tor as a client. Should I just set up a relay and report on my findings? (I plan to do it next time I have some free time available... Problem is, I never have :-( )
This seems like it might work. And it is closer to the US and Europe.
But we need a hotel and venue that do not block Tor clients. In Mexico we risk some ISPs blocking Tor clients as well as relays.
Are there ISPs in Mexico that allow Tor?
Again, AFAICT, using Tor as a client works quite well. Help me check this, and I'll do more thorough checks.
Gunnar Wolf dijo [Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:18:04AM -0500]:
This sounds great!
But it might be hard. Some Mexican ISPs block Tor. They stop relays connecting to the tor directory authorities. So people in Mexico tell us their relays do not work.
Umh, I don't know about this issue. What I know is that my personal (home) connection is with the largest ISP (Telmex / Infinitum), and I was able to run a Tor relay for some time at home, no issues.
Humh, so it seems there are bits to check. I will later give some attention to this bit at home, as I set up a relay, which logs no errors, but has not yet appeared at atlas.torproject.org despite being active for over 24h.
Tor clients still work. They use fallback directories, which are harder to block.
Does your university block the Tor directory authorities? Does it use an ISP that blocks Tor?
How do you suggest me to check this? So far, I have only used Tor as a client. Should I just set up a relay and report on my findings? (I plan to do it next time I have some free time available... Problem is, I never have :-( )
Good news:
https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/4661DE96D3F8E923994B05218F23760C8D7935...
On 25 Apr 2017, at 10:29, Gunnar Wolf gwolf@debian.org wrote:
Gunnar Wolf dijo [Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:18:04AM -0500]:
This sounds great!
But it might be hard. Some Mexican ISPs block Tor. They stop relays connecting to the tor directory authorities. So people in Mexico tell us their relays do not work.
Umh, I don't know about this issue. What I know is that my personal (home) connection is with the largest ISP (Telmex / Infinitum), and I was able to run a Tor relay for some time at home, no issues.
Humh, so it seems there are bits to check. I will later give some attention to this bit at home, as I set up a relay, which logs no errors, but has not yet appeared at atlas.torproject.org despite being active for over 24h.
Yes, that's what people have told us happens with Telmex: the relay can reach itself, but not the directory authorities. It will start logging warnings after a few days if it is not in the consensus.
Tor clients still work. They use fallback directories, which are harder to block.
Does your university block the Tor directory authorities? Does it use an ISP that blocks Tor?
How do you suggest me to check this? So far, I have only used Tor as a client. Should I just set up a relay and report on my findings? (I plan to do it next time I have some free time available... Problem is, I never have :-( )
Good news:
https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/4661DE96D3F8E923994B05218F23760C8D7935...
Great! Looks like your university does not block clients or relays.
Please upgrade to a newer Tor version, 2.5.12 is really old!
The instructions for Debian and Ubuntu are here: https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en#ubuntu
T -- Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n xmpp: teor at torproject dot org ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Humh, so it seems there are bits to check. I will later give some attention to this bit at home, as I set up a relay, which logs no errors, but has not yet appeared at atlas.torproject.org despite being active for over 24h.
Yes, that's what people have told us happens with Telmex: the relay can reach itself, but not the directory authorities. It will start logging warnings after a few days if it is not in the consensus.
Right. Well, maybe I can tweak it to announce on other ports... I'll play with it soonish...
Great! Looks like your university does not block clients or relays.
Please upgrade to a newer Tor version, 2.5.12 is really old!
The instructions for Debian and Ubuntu are here: https://www.torproject.org/docs/debian.html.en#ubuntu
Done, thanks!
On 27 Apr 2017, at 15:13, Gunnar Wolf gwolf@debian.org wrote:
Humh, so it seems there are bits to check. I will later give some attention to this bit at home, as I set up a relay, which logs no errors, but has not yet appeared at atlas.torproject.org despite being active for over 24h.
Yes, that's what people have told us happens with Telmex: the relay can reach itself, but not the directory authorities. It will start logging warnings after a few days if it is not in the consensus.
Right. Well, maybe I can tweak it to announce on other ports... I'll play with it soonish…
That might not help if your ISP blocks the IP addresses of the directory authorities.
Also, we can have this conversation on tor-relays if you want.
T
-- Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP C855 6CED 5D90 A0C5 29F6 4D43 450C BA7F 968F 094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n xmpp: teor at torproject dot org ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
teor:
On 21 Apr 2017, at 14:32, Gunnar Wolf gwolf@gwolf.org wrote: I jumped upon reading this. As I explained in my previous paragraph, even though I'd *love* it to be in Mexico City, I think we are too much on the edge of the region. Also, our country is not (by far) the most visa-friendly to Latin Americans.
But, FWIW, if Mexico were to be chosen (and you don't have any better contacts in here), I can provide (with 90% probability) very good facilities at my workplace, the country's largest university, either at a research institute or at a faculty surrounded by eager students.
This seems like it might work. And it is closer to the US and Europe.
But we need a hotel and venue that do not block Tor clients. In Mexico we risk some ISPs blocking Tor clients as well as relays.
It may be the perfect meetup place for the network circumvention team!!
~Vasilis
Gunnar Wolf:
Alison dijo [Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 07:41:00PM +0000]:
Hola todos/todas!
Hi!
Just by absolute chance, I entered today to look for some information on the Tor Project site, and came across this list. Immediately subscribed and hooked! :-D
That's awesome.
I'm answering to a couple of the points in this list's opening mail.
- Create local Tor meetups and have Tor Project provide resources
(money, people, other materials)
- Hold the Tor Meeting in the Global South
(...)
- More Tor infrastructure in the Global South (relays, DirAuths,
BWAuths, etc)
Wow! This fits us perfectly. I'm just starting a group effort to get some students to work on Tor in the University I work at (Facultad de Ingeniería, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México), setting up at least a relay, but quite probably a full exit node... Lets see how this develops. But so far, it looks like I *have* to be in this list :)
That's great to hear. What kind of help do you need? Where can we send some Tor stickers for you all? Have you met ilv? He's on this list and he runs relays in Latin America.
One thing I'd like to prioritize personally is holding the Tor Meeting in the Global South. We discussed some possible locations and some of the metrics we'd need to consider in identifying good places. Those metrics include:
- overall cost
- visa requirements
- length of travel from the EU and the US/Canada (though we will
consider this, we discussed how people in the Global South have had to deal with long travel times to the EU for all past meetings, so if we find a good place that is a great distance from the EU, so be it)
Ummm... Well, having a meeting in the Global South (lets be pragmatic: As I understand it, it mostly means "in Latin America") is complicated enough as our distances are way larger than what Europeans are used to (and USA-ians often frown upon international travel, mainly to this "underdeveloped backyard")...
Don't you think it's more important to hold this in a place where Latin Americans can travel to more easily? Getting some tens of Europeans or USA-ians won't be too hard. Moving Latin Americans is usually tougher, as money has a different scale and all...
I understand your reasoning here, but we discussed this a lot at the Amsterdam meeting and many people agreed that it's imperative to have some of our annual meetings in the Global South for the sake of building community in those regions. We also talked about ways to make it easier for people from the Global South to come to meetings in EU or US/Canada, like simply getting the invites out earlier so that people could have time to work out their visas.
- internet speeds
- possible conference center locations
- Tor's relationship to the local community (the relationship as it
exists, and opportunities to build it more)
Any other data points that we should consider? Anyone want to throw out some initial ideas for host cities? Some of the cities already discussed a bit include Quito, Mexico City, São Paulo, and Lima. There was some rough consensus that South America is the best first place for a meeting in the South, but it would be great to hear from people who disagree on that.
I jumped upon reading this. As I explained in my previous paragraph, even though I'd *love* it to be in Mexico City, I think we are too much on the edge of the region. Also, our country is not (by far) the most visa-friendly to Latin Americans.
The visa issue is one that gives Mexico City a heavy downvote. Some things in its favor: very inexpensive for US/Canada travel and pretty inexpensive for EU travel, great food and culture. But I also have a bias because the flight there for me takes only about an hour from Texas! :)
But, FWIW, if Mexico were to be chosen (and you don't have any better contacts in here), I can provide (with 90% probability) very good facilities at my workplace, the country's largest university, either at a research institute or at a faculty surrounded by eager students.
This is another big vote for Mexico then!
Alison
Alison dijo [Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:25:00PM +0000]:
Wow! This fits us perfectly. I'm just starting a group effort to get some students to work on Tor in the University I work at (Facultad de Ingeniería, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México), setting up at least a relay, but quite probably a full exit node... Lets see how this develops. But so far, it looks like I *have* to be in this list :)
That's great to hear. What kind of help do you need? Where can we send some Tor stickers for you all? Have you met ilv? He's on this list and he runs relays in Latin America.
I will be happy to give stickers away! Please send them to:
Gunnar Wolf Instituto de Investigaciones Económicas Cto. Mtro. Mario de la Cueva S/N Ciudad Universitaria 04510, Coyoacán Ciudad de México MÉXICO
No, I don't think I've met ilv (not by alias, at least). ilv, ¿quién eres? ¿dónde estás?
I understand your reasoning here, but we discussed this a lot at the Amsterdam meeting and many people agreed that it's imperative to have some of our annual meetings in the Global South for the sake of building community in those regions. We also talked about ways to make it easier for people from the Global South to come to meetings in EU or US/Canada, like simply getting the invites out earlier so that people could have time to work out their visas.
In my experience (personal and organizing various conferences), "regular" tourist visas are much easier to get than for-conference visas. Some ountries, as the USA, have basically stopped issuing single-entry visas (as a Mexican, the only USA visa I can get is a multiple-entry, 10 year one). So, my recommendation would be to "just" apply for a USA visa. I got mine a very long time ago (it's about to expire), but IIRC it was before I got my tickets, so I didn't have specific travel plans.
This varies from country to country (both on the applicant's nationality and on the granter's), but I have found that visas are easier to get if no particular reason is specified. Even more if that reason were to be, "oh, I want to help avoid your stupid government monitoring our lives".
I jumped upon reading this. As I explained in my previous paragraph, even though I'd *love* it to be in Mexico City, I think we are too much on the edge of the region. Also, our country is not (by far) the most visa-friendly to Latin Americans.
The visa issue is one that gives Mexico City a heavy downvote. Some things in its favor: very inexpensive for US/Canada travel and pretty inexpensive for EU travel, great food and culture. But I also have a bias because the flight there for me takes only about an hour from Texas! :)
There are some tips that ease entry to Mexico: Our visa requirements were heavily tightened some years ago, as part of a negotiation for a migrations deal with the USA authorities that never came. But, recognizing that, our government decided that anybody (at least from Latin America) with a valid USA visa in their passport can enter Mexico.
But, FWIW, if Mexico were to be chosen (and you don't have any better contacts in here), I can provide (with 90% probability) very good facilities at my workplace, the country's largest university, either at a research institute or at a faculty surrounded by eager students.
This is another big vote for Mexico then!
\o/
Hola Gunnar, bienvenido! :)
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 12:27:26AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
No, I don't think I've met ilv (not by alias, at least). ilv, ¿quién eres? ¿dónde estás?
I've been working with Jacobo from Enjambre Digital to set up relays in Mexico (and in Latin America). I'm based in Santiago de Chile (I work in the NGO Derechos Digitales).
I just saw your last email to the list about the relay in UNAM, that is awesome! Thanks for that. I'm really interested in getting in touch with people that run relays at universities in Latin America, and I'm also very interested in what teor said about Mexican ISPs blocking tor clients and directory authorities, so I'll be contacting you soon enough, if you're ok with that :)
Abraços. -- https://ilv.9hz.org
ilv@torproject.org dijo [Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 01:15:22AM -0300]:
Hola Gunnar, bienvenido! :)
:-D
No, I don't think I've met ilv (not by alias, at least). ilv, ¿quién eres? ¿dónde estás?
I've been working with Jacobo from Enjambre Digital to set up relays in Mexico (and in Latin America). I'm based in Santiago de Chile (I work in the NGO Derechos Digitales).
Great! We had recently Jacobo and Juliana (Chilean) invited to talk with our small student group at UNAM, and they gave a very good impression :) Of course, Jacobo is a long-time friend of mine, and I'm sure we will work on many more projects together.
I just saw your last email to the list about the relay in UNAM, that is awesome! Thanks for that. I'm really interested in getting in touch with people that run relays at universities in Latin America, and I'm also very interested in what teor said about Mexican ISPs blocking tor clients and directory authorities, so I'll be contacting you soon enough, if you're ok with that :)
I'm more than OK with that. And I can probably rally up some friends in some other Latin American universities to get active on this regard. At least, to try their luck :)
global-south@lists.torproject.org
-
Alison -
Gunnar Wolf -
Gunnar Wolf -
ilv＠torproject.org -
teor -
Vasilis