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Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
So, when deciding which of the two services we should keep, I looked at the number of daily requests to both services, which shows that Globe is used a lot less than Atlas:
https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/atlas-globe-2016-04-01.png
The hope is that retiring Globe could make it more likely that new developers start contributing to Atlas. It would also make it easier for us to add new feature to Atlas, because we wouldn't feel bad for not adding them to Globe, too. In any case, we're getting rid of yet one more thing.
Here's a suggested timeline for retiring Globe:
- By April 30, we create Trac tickets for all features we like in Globe and that are missing in Atlas. These tickets would go in component "Metrics/Atlas" in Trac. If you want to keep something in Atlas that you like in Globe, this is your chance to make that happen!
- By May 15, we'll have reviewed those new tickets and decided which of them we should implement before shutting down Globe. We might send a call for help to tor-dev@ to write these patches.
- By May 31 (hopefully), we'll have implemented, reviewed, merged, and deployed the missing features in Atlas, and we'll shut down Globe. We should probably add a static web page pointing to Atlas. If it takes longer than this, it takes longer, but let's use this date for now. Maybe nobody will be missing anything from Globe. We'll see.
Suggestions welcome, not only if you strongly object!
All the best, Karsten
On 04/23/2016 11:37 AM, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
(snip)
Suggestions welcome, not only if you strongly object!
This is really unfortunate. I really, really like Globe. In my opinion, it looks better and more modern than Atlas. For what it's worth, I vote that we keep it running.
Please note that your view count may be skewed by the fact that there are some mirrors of Globe, such as https://globe.thecthulhu.com. Looks like that same domain also hosts a mirror of Atlas.
Jesse V transcribed 2.9K bytes:
On 04/23/2016 11:37 AM, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
(snip)
Suggestions welcome, not only if you strongly object!
This is really unfortunate. I really, really like Globe. In my opinion, it looks better and more modern than Atlas. For what it's worth, I vote that we keep it running.
Please note that your view count may be skewed by the fact that there are some mirrors of Globe, such as https://globe.thecthulhu.com. Looks like that same domain also hosts a mirror of Atlas.
Hey Jesse,
Thanks for volunteering to be the new maintainer! I'll transfer all the Globe tickets over to you this afternoon. ;)
In all seriousness though:
- I despise Javascript. - There's more important things I can spend time on. - The build system is janky and broken (not to mention insecure due to NPM). - Removing our Globe service doesn't prevent the community from running mirrors, as it's open source and only requires open data from Onionoo. - We're not losing any functionality, because (as Karsten mentioned) Philipp and I have done features and bug fixes in tandem, often even re-componentising the same tickets between Atlas and Globe. - Why we ever had two of the same thing was always a mystery to me.
I vote for killing it.
Best Regards,
On 25 Apr 2016, at 20:47, isis isis@torproject.org wrote:
- Why we ever had two of the same thing was always a mystery to me.
Can we redirect globe.torproject.org to atlas.torproject.org? Are their search syntaxes similar enough that we can redirect fingerprint searches from Globe to Atlas? (Are there any other systems that automatically generate Globe links that we'll have to update?)
Tim
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP 968F094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
Tim Wilson-Brown - teor transcribed 1.8K bytes:
On 25 Apr 2016, at 20:47, isis isis@torproject.org wrote:
- Why we ever had two of the same thing was always a mystery to me.
Can we redirect globe.torproject.org to atlas.torproject.org? Are their search syntaxes similar enough that we can redirect fingerprint searches from Globe to Atlas? (Are there any other systems that automatically generate Globe links that we'll have to update?)
We could probably do this without so much effort, yes. For fingerprints the redirect would be from e.g.:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/relay/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E046... to https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E04...
For searches it would be:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/search/query=noether to https://atlas.torproject.org/#search/noether
However this means we either leave the Globe machine up and configure its Apache to do that, or we change the DNS for globe.torproject.org to point to the Atlas machine and tell Atlas' Apache instance to do that. I'm not sure which one is preferable?
isis:
Tim Wilson-Brown - teor transcribed 1.8K bytes:
Can we redirect globe.torproject.org to atlas.torproject.org? Are their search syntaxes similar enough that we can redirect fingerprint searches from Globe to Atlas? (Are there any other systems that automatically generate Globe links that we'll have to update?)
We could probably do this without so much effort, yes. For fingerprints the redirect would be from e.g.:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/relay/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E046... to https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E04...
For searches it would be:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/search/query=noether to https://atlas.torproject.org/#search/noether
However this means we either leave the Globe machine up and configure its Apache to do that, or we change the DNS for globe.torproject.org to point to the Atlas machine and tell Atlas' Apache instance to do that.
As far as I understand web technologies, the anchor is not sent to the HTTP server. So the rewriting can only be done via JavaScript and not through Apache.
If globe.torproject.org is kept as a separate virtual host, the rewriting code can be sent only to people visiting asking for globe.torproject.org. As this requires no change to Atlas' code, this solution feels cleaner to me.
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On 25/04/16 15:05, Lunar wrote:
isis:
Tim Wilson-Brown - teor transcribed 1.8K bytes:
Can we redirect globe.torproject.org to atlas.torproject.org? Are their search syntaxes similar enough that we can redirect fingerprint searches from Globe to Atlas? (Are there any other systems that automatically generate Globe links that we'll have to update?)
We could probably do this without so much effort, yes. For fingerprints the redirect would be from e.g.:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/relay/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E046... to https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/A10C4F666D27364036B562823E5830BC448E04...
For searches it would be:
https://globe.torproject.org/#/search/query=noether to https://atlas.torproject.org/#search/noether
However this means we either leave the Globe machine up and configure its Apache to do that, or we change the DNS for globe.torproject.org to point to the Atlas machine and tell Atlas' Apache instance to do that.
As far as I understand web technologies, the anchor is not sent to the HTTP server. So the rewriting can only be done via JavaScript and not through Apache.
If globe.torproject.org is kept as a separate virtual host, the rewriting code can be sent only to people visiting asking for globe.torproject.org. As this requires no change to Atlas' code, this solution feels cleaner to me.
Sounds good to me. I started writing that redirection code here:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18893
Please improve! Thanks!
All the best, Karsten
On 23 Apr (17:37:03), Karsten Loesing wrote:
Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
So, when deciding which of the two services we should keep, I looked at the number of daily requests to both services, which shows that Globe is used a lot less than Atlas:
https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/atlas-globe-2016-04-01.png
I am probably causing a significant portion of those requests tbh. I use Globe quite a bit especially when investiguating bad relays.
Anyway, Tim mentionned it below that a simple URL rewrite to the fingerprint search to Altas would be needed. I've seen links to Globe in commits and in the dirauth-conf bad configuration. They they could be changed and track down all Globe URLs but a simple rewrite would simply make it simpler.
The hope is that retiring Globe could make it more likely that new developers start contributing to Atlas. It would also make it easier for us to add new feature to Atlas, because we wouldn't feel bad for not adding them to Globe, too. In any case, we're getting rid of yet one more thing.
I'm good with Atlas. There are things that annoys me with it but if we only have one portal, it's a good reason for me to concentrate on fixing what annoys me instead of going to Globe :).
Thanks for this! David
Here's a suggested timeline for retiring Globe:
- By April 30, we create Trac tickets for all features we like in
Globe and that are missing in Atlas. These tickets would go in component "Metrics/Atlas" in Trac. If you want to keep something in Atlas that you like in Globe, this is your chance to make that happen!
- By May 15, we'll have reviewed those new tickets and decided which
of them we should implement before shutting down Globe. We might send a call for help to tor-dev@ to write these patches.
- By May 31 (hopefully), we'll have implemented, reviewed, merged,
and deployed the missing features in Atlas, and we'll shut down Globe. We should probably add a static web page pointing to Atlas. If it takes longer than this, it takes longer, but let's use this date for now. Maybe nobody will be missing anything from Globe. We'll see.
Suggestions welcome, not only if you strongly object!
All the best, Karsten _______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 08:22:04AM -0400, David Goulet wrote:
I'm good with Atlas. There are things that annoys me with it but if we only have one portal, it's a good reason for me to concentrate on fixing what annoys me instead of going to Globe :).
Two more data points:
1) Much of the time, when I load globe.torproject.org in my Iceweasel, I get a blank page. Nothing comes up -- I think maybe I'm getting javascript but it's choosing not to render anything on the page. It works fine for me in Tor Browser.
2) When David loads atlas in his Tor Browser with security slider set to high, it doesn't load any of the graphs (it displays a big red "No Data" in place of each graph).
For the second one, I think that Atlas is pulling its data from some third party site, and if you can't reach that site, you don't load anything. Whereas maybe Globe fixed that "bug" (aka poor design choice) somewhere after the fork?
In summary, I'm fine with the current trajectory of keeping our atlas and dropping our globe.
--Roger
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On 26/04/16 21:20, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 08:22:04AM -0400, David Goulet wrote:
I'm good with Atlas. There are things that annoys me with it but if we only have one portal, it's a good reason for me to concentrate on fixing what annoys me instead of going to Globe :).
Two more data points:
- Much of the time, when I load globe.torproject.org in my
Iceweasel, I get a blank page. Nothing comes up -- I think maybe I'm getting javascript but it's choosing not to render anything on the page. It works fine for me in Tor Browser.
- When David loads atlas in his Tor Browser with security slider
set to high, it doesn't load any of the graphs (it displays a big red "No Data" in place of each graph).
For the second one, I think that Atlas is pulling its data from some third party site, and if you can't reach that site, you don't load anything. Whereas maybe Globe fixed that "bug" (aka poor design choice) somewhere after the fork?
Or could that problem be related to #18663, in which case neither Atlas nor Globe were to blame but only Onionoo, or rather the Onionoo instance hosted at onionoo.torproject.org?
Can you and David try out the following Atlas and Globe mirrors, which also use an Onionoo mirror, and let me know whether they have the same issues or not?
All the best, Karsten
In summary, I'm fine with the current trajectory of keeping our atlas and dropping our globe.
--Roger
_______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
On 28 Apr 2016, at 22:19, Karsten Loesing karsten@torproject.org wrote:
On 26/04/16 21:20, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 08:22:04AM -0400, David Goulet wrote:
I'm good with Atlas. There are things that annoys me with it but if we only have one portal, it's a good reason for me to concentrate on fixing what annoys me instead of going to Globe :).
It would be great to have a <noscript> message on Atlas. Like the one on globe :-)
A gentle reminder to enable JavaScript.
Tim
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP 968F094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
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On 28/04/16 14:24, Tim Wilson-Brown - teor wrote:
On 28 Apr 2016, at 22:19, Karsten Loesing karsten@torproject.org wrote:
On 26/04/16 21:20, Roger Dingledine wrote:
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 08:22:04AM -0400, David Goulet wrote:
I'm good with Atlas. There are things that annoys me with it but if we only have one portal, it's a good reason for me to concentrate on fixing what annoys me instead of going to Globe :).
It would be great to have a <noscript> message on Atlas. Like the one on globe :-)
A gentle reminder to enable JavaScript.
Added as https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18924
Feel free to suggest more, ideally on Trac, but here is okay, too. Thanks!
All the best, Karsten
Tim
Tim Wilson-Brown (teor)
teor2345 at gmail dot com PGP 968F094B ricochet:ekmygaiu4rzgsk6n
_______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
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On 23/04/16 17:37, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
So, when deciding which of the two services we should keep, I looked at the number of daily requests to both services, which shows that Globe is used a lot less than Atlas:
https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/atlas-globe-2016-04-01.png
The hope is that retiring Globe could make it more likely that new developers start contributing to Atlas. It would also make it easier for us to add new feature to Atlas, because we wouldn't feel bad for not adding them to Globe, too. In any case, we're getting rid of yet one more thing.
Here's a suggested timeline for retiring Globe:
- By April 30, we create Trac tickets for all features we like in
Globe and that are missing in Atlas. These tickets would go in component "Metrics/Atlas" in Trac. If you want to keep something in Atlas that you like in Globe, this is your chance to make that happen!
Still 1 day left to add Atlas tickets for Globe features that we should implement in Atlas before dumping Globe. So far, we have 3 such tickets:
https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?status=!closed&component=...
If one of the other tickets looks worth doing before shutting down Globe, please add the keyword complete-before-abandoning-globe to it. Or feel free to create a new ticket with that keyword for an issue that is not yet filed.
Philipp and Isis, should we schedule a meeting for going through these (currently) 48 tickets and decide whether we want to
- turn Globe tickets into Atlas tickets if we want to keep them, - resolve the remaining Globe tickets, - add or remove keyword complete-before-abandoning-globe, and - make plans for getting them implemented soon?
How about we use the metrics team meeting time slot in 1.5 weeks when there's no metrics team meeting? That would be:
Thursday, May 12, 14:00 UTC in #tor-dev
Happy to consider a different time or start a Doodle for this.
All the best, Karsten
- By May 15, we'll have reviewed those new tickets and decided
which of them we should implement before shutting down Globe. We might send a call for help to tor-dev@ to write these patches.
- By May 31 (hopefully), we'll have implemented, reviewed, merged,
and deployed the missing features in Atlas, and we'll shut down Globe. We should probably add a static web page pointing to Atlas. If it takes longer than this, it takes longer, but let's use this date for now. Maybe nobody will be missing anything from Globe. We'll see.
Suggestions welcome, not only if you strongly object!
All the best, Karsten
Karsten Loesing transcribed 3.7K bytes:
Philipp and Isis, should we schedule a meeting for going through these (currently) 48 tickets and decide whether we want to
- turn Globe tickets into Atlas tickets if we want to keep them,
- resolve the remaining Globe tickets,
- add or remove keyword complete-before-abandoning-globe, and
- make plans for getting them implemented soon?
How about we use the metrics team meeting time slot in 1.5 weeks when there's no metrics team meeting? That would be:
Thursday, May 12, 14:00 UTC in #tor-dev
That time works for me.
Best Regards,
On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 10:00:33AM +0200, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Philipp and Isis, should we schedule a meeting for going through these (currently) 48 tickets and decide whether we want to
- turn Globe tickets into Atlas tickets if we want to keep them,
- resolve the remaining Globe tickets,
- add or remove keyword complete-before-abandoning-globe, and
- make plans for getting them implemented soon?
Yes, that works for me.
How about we use the metrics team meeting time slot in 1.5 weeks when there's no metrics team meeting? That would be:
Thursday, May 12, 14:00 UTC in #tor-dev
Happy to consider a different time or start a Doodle for this.
Unfortunately, that's in the middle of my day job, so I won't be able to attend. I prefer 21:00 UTC to 04:00 UTC. If that makes it harder for you, please feel free to meet without me. I could also provide feedback asynchronously on Trac.
Cheers, Philipp
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On 04/05/16 18:28, Philipp Winter wrote:
On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 10:00:33AM +0200, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Philipp and Isis, should we schedule a meeting for going through these (currently) 48 tickets and decide whether we want to
- turn Globe tickets into Atlas tickets if we want to keep them,
- resolve the remaining Globe tickets, - add or remove keyword
complete-before-abandoning-globe, and - make plans for getting them implemented soon?
Yes, that works for me.
How about we use the metrics team meeting time slot in 1.5 weeks when there's no metrics team meeting? That would be:
Thursday, May 12, 14:00 UTC in #tor-dev
Happy to consider a different time or start a Doodle for this.
Unfortunately, that's in the middle of my day job, so I won't be able to attend. I prefer 21:00 UTC to 04:00 UTC. If that makes it harder for you, please feel free to meet without me. I could also provide feedback asynchronously on Trac.
Hmmmmm, 21:00 UTC to 04:00 UTC is really tough for me. Would 14:00 UTC (or anything between 07:00 UTC and 16:00 UTC) would work better for you on a weekend?
But how about we try to move this forward asynchronously and only fall back to synchronous if that doesn't work out? Talking about all tickets in an hour might have been a bit optimistic anyway.
I just went through most of the 48 tickets and cut the list down to 33 with only 1 Globe ticket left (for the redirect to Atlas). I hope I didn't mess up things too much.
Would you, Isis and Philipp, want to go through the list, too, and see which of the tickets you'd want to close or seen done before we shut down Globe (add keyword complete-before-abandoning-globe)? And feel free to look at recently closed Atlas and Globe tickets and consider re-opening them if you disagree.
Hope that makes sense. I feel we're getting closer!
All the best, Karsten
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Hello everyone,
tl;dr: Globe is now retired in favor of an improved Atlas.
On 30/04/16 10:00, Karsten Loesing wrote:
On 23/04/16 17:37, Karsten Loesing wrote:
Hello everyone,
as the subject says, I suggest that we retire Globe (currently available at https://globe.torproject.org/).
The main reason is that Globe is serving a similar purpose as Atlas (available at https://atlas.torproject.org/), which it was forked from several years ago. Neither Atlas nor Globe are actively developed, they only receive critical bug fixes whenever necessary. And thanks, Philipp and Isis, for doing that!
So, when deciding which of the two services we should keep, I looked at the number of daily requests to both services, which shows that Globe is used a lot less than Atlas:
https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/atlas-globe-2016-04-01.png
The hope is that retiring Globe could make it more likely that new developers start contributing to Atlas. It would also make it easier for us to add new feature to Atlas, because we wouldn't feel bad for not adding them to Globe, too. In any case, we're getting rid of yet one more thing.
Here's a suggested timeline for retiring Globe:
[...]
- By May 31 (hopefully), we'll have implemented, reviewed,
merged, and deployed the missing features in Atlas, and we'll shut down Globe. We should probably add a static web page pointing to Atlas. If it takes longer than this, it takes longer, but let's use this date for now. Maybe nobody will be missing anything from Globe. We'll see.
We're one month behind, but we're finally there!
Thanks at lot to irl for contributing the missing patches and for making Atlas better! Thanks to phw for reviewing and deploying patches!
The Globe instance at https://globe.torproject.org/ is now retired.
I left the instance at https://globe.thecthulhu.com/ in place for now, but it may disappear without further notice.
All the best, Karsten
tor-project@lists.torproject.org
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David Goulet -
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Jesse V -
Karsten Loesing -
Lunar -
Philipp Winter -
Roger Dingledine -
Tim Wilson-Brown - teor