Hi,
when I was driving back from 32C3, my wife and I spoke about having a TorDevMeeting in our home town, Jena. I shortly discussed this idea in #tor-project and decided to write a longer mail to you.
Jena is located in mid-Germany (URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena), has 110,000 citizens (a quarter being students of our two universities) and is home to Zeiss (you might know Zeiss glasses) as well as other e-commerce companies (Intershop, Demandware are the more well-known ones). It also has a nice landscape: URL:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Jena_Panorama.jpg
How to get here? Jena has no airport. The next airports are in Erfurt and Leipzig. However Berlin, Frankfurt/M. and Munich are a trainride (2-3 hours) away. Also several bus companies stop here (BerlinLinienBus, MeinFernbus etc.). So from my impression it is easy to get here, YMMV.
Venue: There are several possible venues. Many of them belong to a university, but can be used for nearly anything (no political events). If I can find a professor who supports it the rent is cheaper or is, in some cases, free. My wife organises trade shows and might have a suggestion. She also offered in helping to organise the DevMeeting.
Hotel: There are 7-8 hotels near the center of Jena. They have a total capacity of ~400 rooms. Furthermore there is another one with 160 rooms. Details can be found here: URL:https://www.jenatourismus.de/de/jena_buchen/hotels_und_unterkuenfte/321805?lnk_hotelkategorie=336554&lnk_preiskategorie=&title= (Anzahl der Zimmer == number of rooms, Zimmerpreis == price per room).
There are, of course, some more important points for a TorDevMeeting which I'm currently not aware of. So if you like to know more or can point me to some other important points I'm happy to provide those information.
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:03:32 +0100 Jens Kubieziel maillist@kubieziel.de wrote:
How to get here? Jena has no airport. The next airports are in Erfurt and Leipzig. However Berlin, Frankfurt/M. and Munich are a trainride (2-3 hours) away. Also several bus companies stop here (BerlinLinienBus, MeinFernbus etc.). So from my impression it is easy to get here, YMMV.
If I'm the only one that thinks travel would be excessive, then please don't let me be the person that keeps this from moving forward (esp since I will be moving internationally again RSN).
That said, going from East-Asia to Jena would comfortably exceed 30 h of total travel time, and I don't see myself being in any condition to navigate a train system to get to a hotel.
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
But, like I said, I'm indifferent since I'm moving. Though West Coast US is on the candidate lists for some inexplicable reason, so travel from there is likely to be fairly painful to most of Europe...
Regards,
Hey Jens. I think the lack of airport makes this a nonstarter as a location for a Tor Developer Meeting site. There are simply too many people coming from too many far away places. Thanks for offering it, though. It looks like a beautiful area. Shari
On Jan 11, 2016, at 2:50 AM, Yawning Angel yawning@schwanenlied.me wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:03:32 +0100 Jens Kubieziel maillist@kubieziel.de wrote:
How to get here? Jena has no airport. The next airports are in Erfurt and Leipzig. However Berlin, Frankfurt/M. and Munich are a trainride (2-3 hours) away. Also several bus companies stop here (BerlinLinienBus, MeinFernbus etc.). So from my impression it is easy to get here, YMMV.
If I'm the only one that thinks travel would be excessive, then please don't let me be the person that keeps this from moving forward (esp since I will be moving internationally again RSN).
That said, going from East-Asia to Jena would comfortably exceed 30 h of total travel time, and I don't see myself being in any condition to navigate a train system to get to a hotel.
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
But, like I said, I'm indifferent since I'm moving. Though West Coast US is on the candidate lists for some inexplicable reason, so travel from there is likely to be fairly painful to most of Europe...
Regards,
-- Yawning Angel _______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
I feel this dismissal is a bit quick: a local airport should not be a sine qua non. Definitely an important factor, but not enough to dismiss locations out of hand.
As an example, for the last tor-dev in Valencia, I and the other NRL folk originally were going to fly into Valencia, but then we realized it was cheaper, easier, and just about as quick for us to fly into Madrid and take a train. Definitely not more complex than some of the purely airport navigations I've had to manage in places where I was confused and jetlagged, and generally more fault-tolerant for missing a connection or wandering confusedly to the wrong part of the facility.
This involved mass transit to downtown Madrid, but was generally pretty straightforward. Taking a taxi would make it even easier. We're doing the same thing again this year. Looking at the who-could-doubt maps.google.com shows a train w/ one change straight from the Frankfurt airport to Jena that is comparable in length to our ride between Madrid and Valencia. So (handwave) it should be about as easy.
Which travel/meeting factors matter most will vary widely across this diverse group like everything else. (Going outside the US is at least double the paperwork, approvals, headaches, and way more than double the needed lead time of domestic U.S. travel for the NRL folk. Others have much more extreme limitations on their travel.) It's all tradeoffs. But Europe (+ Iceland) is possibly the only current place that will not majorly increase the travel-restriction, internet, monetary, travel-convenience-compromise, etc. overhead for a general tor-dev meeting as Isis has already set out nicely.
We could limit to a half-dozen major European cities w/ direct flights from North America and Asia, but I think adding a short hop by train should not automatically override other factors.
We've already talked about having team (in the Vegas-plan sense) meetings in various places rather than general meetings as Tor has grown. But within teams we still have the same sorts of issues Isis noted, and more. A good topic for discussing in Valencia amongst the evergrowing herd of cats might be having one annual meeting probably in Europe, and then another in the U.S., maybe one in Australia or Asia if number of people could justify. Now if we could just get new Oculus Rift gear to everyone with the Gunner Avatar installed, that could definitely work for those who can't be there.
aloha, Paul
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 06:45:26AM -0800, Shari Steele wrote:
Hey Jens. I think the lack of airport makes this a nonstarter as a location for a Tor Developer Meeting site. There are simply too many people coming from too many far away places. Thanks for offering it, though. It looks like a beautiful area. Shari
On Jan 11, 2016, at 2:50 AM, Yawning Angel yawning@schwanenlied.me wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:03:32 +0100 Jens Kubieziel maillist@kubieziel.de wrote:
How to get here? Jena has no airport. The next airports are in Erfurt and Leipzig. However Berlin, Frankfurt/M. and Munich are a trainride (2-3 hours) away. Also several bus companies stop here (BerlinLinienBus, MeinFernbus etc.). So from my impression it is easy to get here, YMMV.
If I'm the only one that thinks travel would be excessive, then please don't let me be the person that keeps this from moving forward (esp since I will be moving internationally again RSN).
That said, going from East-Asia to Jena would comfortably exceed 30 h of total travel time, and I don't see myself being in any condition to navigate a train system to get to a hotel.
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
But, like I said, I'm indifferent since I'm moving. Though West Coast US is on the candidate lists for some inexplicable reason, so travel from there is likely to be fairly painful to most of Europe...
Regards,
-- Yawning Angel _______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
Southeast Asia meetings have been proposed before. There are many desirable candidates from: Bali, Manila, or Bangkok. All three locations have fiber internet as well as an international airport.
If I personally were to suggest a place, I'd suggest Bali. I think it'd be a more interesting location for our attendees while also being very english / western-food friendly. Examples of pleasantness:
Popular co-working spots * http://www.dojobali.org/ * http://www.lineuphub.co/ * http://www.hubud.org/
Possible accommodations: * https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1878334 * https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/635034 * https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/71595 * https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/3776115
With the nearby Monkey forest and Komodo dragon park * https://www.facebook.com/virgil.gr/posts/10106605284264249 * http://www.balifornian.com/gallery/our-image-gallery/6587305
-V
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 1:29 AM Paul Syverson paul.syverson@nrl.navy.mil wrote:
I feel this dismissal is a bit quick: a local airport should not be a sine qua non. Definitely an important factor, but not enough to dismiss locations out of hand.
As an example, for the last tor-dev in Valencia, I and the other NRL folk originally were going to fly into Valencia, but then we realized it was cheaper, easier, and just about as quick for us to fly into Madrid and take a train. Definitely not more complex than some of the purely airport navigations I've had to manage in places where I was confused and jetlagged, and generally more fault-tolerant for missing a connection or wandering confusedly to the wrong part of the facility.
This involved mass transit to downtown Madrid, but was generally pretty straightforward. Taking a taxi would make it even easier. We're doing the same thing again this year. Looking at the who-could-doubt maps.google.com shows a train w/ one change straight from the Frankfurt airport to Jena that is comparable in length to our ride between Madrid and Valencia. So (handwave) it should be about as easy.
Which travel/meeting factors matter most will vary widely across this diverse group like everything else. (Going outside the US is at least double the paperwork, approvals, headaches, and way more than double the needed lead time of domestic U.S. travel for the NRL folk. Others have much more extreme limitations on their travel.) It's all tradeoffs. But Europe (+ Iceland) is possibly the only current place that will not majorly increase the travel-restriction, internet, monetary, travel-convenience-compromise, etc. overhead for a general tor-dev meeting as Isis has already set out nicely.
We could limit to a half-dozen major European cities w/ direct flights from North America and Asia, but I think adding a short hop by train should not automatically override other factors.
We've already talked about having team (in the Vegas-plan sense) meetings in various places rather than general meetings as Tor has grown. But within teams we still have the same sorts of issues Isis noted, and more. A good topic for discussing in Valencia amongst the evergrowing herd of cats might be having one annual meeting probably in Europe, and then another in the U.S., maybe one in Australia or Asia if number of people could justify. Now if we could just get new Oculus Rift gear to everyone with the Gunner Avatar installed, that could definitely work for those who can't be there.
aloha, Paul
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 06:45:26AM -0800, Shari Steele wrote:
Hey Jens. I think the lack of airport makes this a nonstarter as a location for a
Tor Developer Meeting site. There are simply too many people coming from too many far away places. Thanks for offering it, though. It looks like a beautiful area.
Shari
On Jan 11, 2016, at 2:50 AM, Yawning Angel yawning@schwanenlied.me
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:03:32 +0100 Jens Kubieziel maillist@kubieziel.de wrote:
How to get here? Jena has no airport. The next airports are in Erfurt and Leipzig. However Berlin, Frankfurt/M. and Munich are a trainride (2-3 hours) away. Also several bus companies stop here (BerlinLinienBus, MeinFernbus etc.). So from my impression it is easy to get here, YMMV.
If I'm the only one that thinks travel would be excessive, then please don't let me be the person that keeps this from moving forward (esp since I will be moving internationally again RSN).
That said, going from East-Asia to Jena would comfortably exceed 30 h
of
total travel time, and I don't see myself being in any condition to navigate a train system to get to a hotel.
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
But, like I said, I'm indifferent since I'm moving. Though West Coast US is on the candidate lists for some inexplicable reason, so travel from there is likely to be fairly painful to most of Europe...
Regards,
-- Yawning Angel _______________________________________________ tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
tor-project mailing list tor-project@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-project
Yawning Angel transcribed 2.6K bytes:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:03:32 +0100 Jens Kubieziel maillist@kubieziel.de wrote:
If I'm the only one that thinks travel would be excessive, then please don't let me be the person that keeps this from moving forward (esp since I will be moving internationally again RSN).
That said, going from East-Asia to Jena would comfortably exceed 30 h of total travel time, and I don't see myself being in any condition to navigate a train system to get to a hotel.
If it makes it easier, you're welcome to fly into Berlin a day or two before, and I can give you a couch to crash on and get your train ticket for you. (And the invitation for train tickets and travel assistance extends to everyone, but I only have one couch.)
What do you think? Should we move this idea forward?
But, like I said, I'm indifferent since I'm moving. Though West Coast US is on the candidate lists for some inexplicable reason, so travel from there is likely to be fairly painful to most of Europe...
It's hard to get *anywhere* from the left coast…
Where should we hold meetings instead? Only major cities?
South America and Australia take to long for the majority of people to get to. If we did Africa… no offense to Africa or you all, but I feel like I'd be hearing all of you complain all week about how shitty the internet connections are… so that's out. That leaves North America (which a bunch of people don't feel safe going to, and which one other person can't leave), Europe, and possibly Asia. (Except Asia means we fly nearly everyone there.)
Although, I'm probably least inconvienenced by holding the meeting in Jena, so I defer to others who would be more inconvenienced… it seems likely that the benefits of having free venue would outweigh the costs of getting train tickets for everyone from the nearest major city. It's about 100€ for five people to go from Berlin ←→ Jena by train, so in total this would add a cost of a few thousand euros. (Compare to the last meeting, where I think we paid something like 18.000€ for renting the meeting space.)
* isis schrieb am 2016-01-11 um 16:52 Uhr:
possibly Asia. (Except Asia means we fly nearly everyone there.)
IIRC Asia was already ruled out, because of cost and political situation in some countries.
tickets for everyone from the nearest major city. It's about 100€ for five people to go from Berlin ←→ Jena by train, so in total this would add a cost
That 100 € is probably the cheapest version which depends on time of booking, available seats etc. The usual price is more like 100 € /per person/.
So Jena is probably more expensive and inconvenient for many of us. ;)
tor-project@lists.torproject.org
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isis -
Jens Kubieziel -
Paul Syverson -
Shari Steele -
Virgil Griffith -
Yawning Angel