On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
Good Morning,
I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
It seems that everybody wants to be an node operator these days but sadly enough there is absolutely no test or qualification that proves that one has at least something like minimum admin skills or other capabilities to do the job. Anybody who wants to drive a car needs a license though.
Honestly, its great that it is getting a little bit easier to operate a tor node but when there are discussions over a period of days on how to adjust a VPS clock or basic lectures about udp / tcp ports, 100 % cpu load and so on then there is only so much to say:
If you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it !
Neither is this mailing list nor the tor project in general the right place to make first steps as an admin. This project needs serious people with serious skills in this serious time which are capable to operate reliable, stable and when possible of course fast systems. There is a reason why most operators are it professionals with years and years of experience in operating different systems all over the world.
And further, i strongly disagree with the text Robert wrote today that the project should provide more material for newbies because there is already more than enough material. And if you feel that this is insufficient then thats just proving my point that you and others are way out of your depth and i seriously doubt that flooding the relay list with "linux for dummies" questions is helping the project with its limited personal and technical resources in any way.
I would like to propose a new list which may or may not be called "tor-relays-new" or so. New operators should start there for a certain period of time and if everything seems to be in order they may be transferred to tor-relays. Of course this is just a very rough proposal, there may should be other criteria involved, like uptime, received flags etc. Im sure that there could be a reasonable list of achievements for new relay operators.
I expect a bit of resistance and a bit of a shitstorm right now. Please feel free to direct this straight to me and not to the list. I also would like a discussion regarding the facts of the matter to take place on this list very much.
Keep in mind that i'm just the messenger and probably just saying out loud what a lot of people are thinking ... -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Sincerely yours
Sebastian Urbach
In time of war, the first casualty is always truth.
Hiram Warren Johnson (1866-1945) US Senator, California
Sebastian,
I respect your opinion and appreciate your frustration borne from the inabilities of less skilled correspondents and their submissions. However, I don't believe running a Tor node, of any kind, requires either "it professionals with years and years of experience" or "serious skills" in system administration. Similarly, I don't believe the designers of Tor consider such qualities prerequisites of Tor node operators but this is strictly my opinion -- I cannot, and do not intend, to speak for them. I believe that diversity (viz. amateurs) should not be vilified but should, in fact, be encouraged and supported. Further, if it "seems that everybody wants to be an node operator these days", I consider this a positive trend and hope it continues. While I don't share your opinion that node operation "can be described as a cutting edge job or experience", I do find the description suitable for Tor development; however, the two aren't equable and shouldn't be conflated. While code should be audited, I don't believe regulation should be applied to operators (except autoregulation) and don't really find node operation analogous with driving motor vehicles. In part, I agree with the sentiment that "[if] you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it"; however, I would instead change the apodosis to: 'seek assistance'. I would find that outcome preferable to ceasing participation entirely. Correspondingly, I consider this mailing list an excellent resource to facilitate said assistance; subscribers will either choose to contribute, or not. Furthermore, more documentation is rarely a bad idea and while limited resources should be prudently managed, I don't believe requests for assistance from mailing list correspondents consume said resources. Nevertheless, subscribers are free to acknowledge mailing list correspondence or ignore it and, in my inexperienced opinion, [tor-relays] doesn't appear to be subjected to "flooding". In regards to your proposal, frankly, I find it somewhat elitist and prefer to avoid 'classism' where possible. I don't intend to dismiss your concerns or argue their validity, I just don't share them and believe there are more pressing issues regarding the Tor Network/Project. In the interest of full disclosure, I consider myself one of these "new relay operators" [0] so my opinions are most likely affected by bias.
[0] https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/799B025E25850A88CD133276301FAFB731C2EA...