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Message: 1 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 11:48:01 +0200 From: Konrad Neitzel konrad@neitzel.de To: tor-relays@lists.torproject.org Subject: Re: [tor-relays] NSA's "Tor Stinks" Message-ID: 1381312081.3204.32.camel@opensusevm1.site Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
On Tue, 2013-10-08 at 23:40 -0400, krishna e bera wrote:
On 13-10-08 03:23 PM, Jesse Victors wrote:
... obviously has implications into other Tor users, the vast majority of whom use Tor for legal and proper activities.
Could you give some evidence for what "vast majority" means in terms of percentages? How are you getting such data?
I think that we first need a clear definition what "legal" means or what "proper activities" are. The core problem is, that the definition of these terms can differ a lot (e.g. from country to country but even from person to person inside a country. At least the interior minister of germany seems to have some strange ideas :) ).
And I just read a news article of a german publisher (Heise) about NSA and what they do and I understood it that NSA is claiming to just check on non US citizens or illegal things. The "owner" of the data that is sent between 2 tor nodes cannot be identified so when the NSA attacks any tor traffic there must be some kind of understanding, that using the tor network already is something illegal in the minds of these people.
At least that was, what I understood when I was reading this article.
With kind regards,
Konrad
Ok, I did not expect that this was going to be a talking point or be otherwise confusing. No I don't have any hard numbers, nor do I run an exit that I can test using tcpdump. But the Torproject repeatedly says that Tor is often used for good, or simply to just hide one's Internet activities for those who feel that they have a right to be hidden even if they have nothing to hide. I have friends who do their browsing over Tor, and there's nothing at all controversial about what they are up to as far as I'm aware. I understand what you're saying: I agree that simply going to Google may be illegal in some countries. I believe that a few bad apples put Tor in the news, make things hard for the exit operators, and spoil things for the rest of us.
My point was that the NSA is doing penetration testing on the Tor network and doing what they can to figure it out. No matter what kind of traffic goes through Tor, the fact remains is that they are doing that, and we need to be aware of their efforts, the progress they've made, and what they are planning. That was my main topic that I was introducing to the group.
Jesse V.