Good Morning,
I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
It seems that everybody wants to be an node operator these days but sadly enough there is absolutely no test or qualification that proves that one has at least something like minimum admin skills or other capabilities to do the job. Anybody who wants to drive a car needs a license though.
Honestly, its great that it is getting a little bit easier to operate a tor node but when there are discussions over a period of days on how to adjust a VPS clock or basic lectures about udp / tcp ports, 100 % cpu load and so on then there is only so much to say:
If you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it !
Neither is this mailing list nor the tor project in general the right place to make first steps as an admin. This project needs serious people with serious skills in this serious time which are capable to operate reliable, stable and when possible of course fast systems. There is a reason why most operators are it professionals with years and years of experience in operating different systems all over the world.
And further, i strongly disagree with the text Robert wrote today that the project should provide more material for newbies because there is already more than enough material. And if you feel that this is insufficient then thats just proving my point that you and others are way out of your depth and i seriously doubt that flooding the relay list with "linux for dummies" questions is helping the project with its limited personal and technical resources in any way.
I would like to propose a new list which may or may not be called "tor-relays-new" or so. New operators should start there for a certain period of time and if everything seems to be in order they may be transferred to tor-relays. Of course this is just a very rough proposal, there may should be other criteria involved, like uptime, received flags etc. Im sure that there could be a reasonable list of achievements for new relay operators.
I expect a bit of resistance and a bit of a shitstorm right now. Please feel free to direct this straight to me and not to the list. I also would like a discussion regarding the facts of the matter to take place on this list very much.
Keep in mind that i'm just the messenger and probably just saying out loud what a lot of people are thinking ... -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Sincerely yours
Sebastian Urbach
------------------------------------ In time of war, the first casualty is always truth. ------------------------------------ Hiram Warren Johnson (1866-1945) US Senator, California
Moritz and Jeroen, Thank you both.
I tried both your ideas but the system is set to prevent the time being changed as you thought. Another plea to the VPS controllers and it was corrected. So the lesson there is presume it is the VPS set-up first and foremost.
You both should know that the concise and clear advice like yours is what this list needs rather than mysterious jargon and code. Anyone finding the instructions you gave would also see the complete explanation with them.
I don't know how but it would be good to facilitate the search for or extract such advice for keen newboys. The subject line isn't always the best label as I demonstrated.
Robert
_______________________________________________ tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
Good Morning,
I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
It seems that everybody wants to be an node operator these days but sadly enough there is absolutely no test or qualification that proves that one has at least something like minimum admin skills or other capabilities to do the job. Anybody who wants to drive a car needs a license though.
Honestly, its great that it is getting a little bit easier to operate a tor node but when there are discussions over a period of days on how to adjust a VPS clock or basic lectures about udp / tcp ports, 100 % cpu load and so on then there is only so much to say:
If you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it !
Neither is this mailing list nor the tor project in general the right place to make first steps as an admin. This project needs serious people with serious skills in this serious time which are capable to operate reliable, stable and when possible of course fast systems. There is a reason why most operators are it professionals with years and years of experience in operating different systems all over the world.
And further, i strongly disagree with the text Robert wrote today that the project should provide more material for newbies because there is already more than enough material. And if you feel that this is insufficient then thats just proving my point that you and others are way out of your depth and i seriously doubt that flooding the relay list with "linux for dummies" questions is helping the project with its limited personal and technical resources in any way.
I would like to propose a new list which may or may not be called "tor-relays-new" or so. New operators should start there for a certain period of time and if everything seems to be in order they may be transferred to tor-relays. Of course this is just a very rough proposal, there may should be other criteria involved, like uptime, received flags etc. Im sure that there could be a reasonable list of achievements for new relay operators.
I expect a bit of resistance and a bit of a shitstorm right now. Please feel free to direct this straight to me and not to the list. I also would like a discussion regarding the facts of the matter to take place on this list very much.
Keep in mind that i'm just the messenger and probably just saying out loud what a lot of people are thinking ... -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Sincerely yours
Sebastian Urbach
In time of war, the first casualty is always truth.
Hiram Warren Johnson (1866-1945) US Senator, California
Sebastian,
I respect your opinion and appreciate your frustration borne from the inabilities of less skilled correspondents and their submissions. However, I don't believe running a Tor node, of any kind, requires either "it professionals with years and years of experience" or "serious skills" in system administration. Similarly, I don't believe the designers of Tor consider such qualities prerequisites of Tor node operators but this is strictly my opinion -- I cannot, and do not intend, to speak for them. I believe that diversity (viz. amateurs) should not be vilified but should, in fact, be encouraged and supported. Further, if it "seems that everybody wants to be an node operator these days", I consider this a positive trend and hope it continues. While I don't share your opinion that node operation "can be described as a cutting edge job or experience", I do find the description suitable for Tor development; however, the two aren't equable and shouldn't be conflated. While code should be audited, I don't believe regulation should be applied to operators (except autoregulation) and don't really find node operation analogous with driving motor vehicles. In part, I agree with the sentiment that "[if] you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it"; however, I would instead change the apodosis to: 'seek assistance'. I would find that outcome preferable to ceasing participation entirely. Correspondingly, I consider this mailing list an excellent resource to facilitate said assistance; subscribers will either choose to contribute, or not. Furthermore, more documentation is rarely a bad idea and while limited resources should be prudently managed, I don't believe requests for assistance from mailing list correspondents consume said resources. Nevertheless, subscribers are free to acknowledge mailing list correspondence or ignore it and, in my inexperienced opinion, [tor-relays] doesn't appear to be subjected to "flooding". In regards to your proposal, frankly, I find it somewhat elitist and prefer to avoid 'classism' where possible. I don't intend to dismiss your concerns or argue their validity, I just don't share them and believe there are more pressing issues regarding the Tor Network/Project. In the interest of full disclosure, I consider myself one of these "new relay operators" [0] so my opinions are most likely affected by bias.
[0] https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/799B025E25850A88CD133276301FAFB731C2EA...
On 1/15/2014 8:19 AM, nano wrote:
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
[snip]
If you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it !
[snip]
And further, i strongly disagree with the text Robert wrote today that the project should provide more material for newbies because there is already more than enough material.
[snip]
I would like to propose a new list which may or may not be called "tor-relays-new" or so. New operators should start there for a certain period of time and if everything seems to be in order they may be transferred to tor-relays.
[snip]
Sebastian,
I respect your opinion and appreciate your frustration borne from the inabilities of less skilled correspondents and their submissions. However, I don't believe running a Tor node, of any kind, requires either "it professionals with years and years of experience" or "serious skills" in system administration.
[snip]
In part, I agree with the sentiment that "[if] you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it"; however, I would instead change the apodosis to: 'seek assistance'. I would find that outcome preferable to ceasing participation entirely. Correspondingly, I consider this mailing list an excellent resource to facilitate said assistance; subscribers will either choose to contribute, or not. Furthermore, more documentation is rarely a bad idea and while limited resources should be prudently managed, I don't believe requests for assistance from mailing list correspondents consume said resources.
[snip]
Nevertheless, subscribers are free to acknowledge mailing list correspondence or ignore it
[snip] In the interest of
full disclosure, I consider myself one of these "new relay operators" [0] so my opinions are most likely affected by bias.
[0] https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/799B025E25850A88CD133276301FAFB731C2EA...
I've been thinking for a while that a separate list for *bridge* operators might be a good idea. I've put effort (and cash) into running a bridge approaching 24/7, at which I was successful with TBB ver 2, but have been frustrated since the advent of browser 3.5 and standalone vidalia. Running the bridge blindly - just loading 3.5 and not trying to assess whether the bridge is working properly, or indeed if it's necessary, hasn't been satisfying. I want to know why/how certain things wok or don't work. I've been conflicted in this; either I run my own experiments, resulting in the bridge being up erratically; or I ask what I can well believe experienced node operators & developers might consider dunderheaded questions. And since bridges are supposed to be secret, I'm not even sure what should or should not beasked in a clear list. I've tried asking tor support via encrypted msgs with mixed results: I can understand that support has more important things to do than reassure me that I'm on the right track. If other bridge operators also feel underserved and experienced users feel beleaguered by us, maybe opening a list for bridge operators (or an encrypted support address) might be a good experiment. Even if a dedicated list is populated only amateurs it might help us keep running more consistently & intelligently. Yup, my bridge is down for now. Understanding what I'm doing has taken too much time away from other work. I hope to have the bridge up again as soon as I have enough time to work things out on my own or frame intelligent questions. - eliaz ---- gpg 04DEF82B
--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
On 18/01/2014 12:30 PM, eliaz wrote:
On 1/15/2014 8:19 AM, nano wrote:
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
[...]
I've been thinking for a while that a separate list for *bridge* operators might be a good idea. I've put effort (and cash) into running a bridge approaching 24/7, at which I was successful with TBB ver 2, but have been frustrated since the advent of browser 3.5 and standalone vidalia. Running the bridge blindly - just loading 3.5 and not trying to assess whether the bridge is working properly, or indeed if it's necessary, hasn't been satisfying. I want to know why/how certain things wok or don't work. I've been conflicted in this; either I run my own experiments, resulting in the bridge being up erratically; or I ask what I can well believe experienced node operators & developers might consider dunderheaded questions. And since bridges are supposed to be secret, I'm not even sure what should or should not beasked in a clear list. I've tried asking tor support via encrypted msgs with mixed results: I can understand that support has more important things to do than reassure me that I'm on the right track. If other bridge operators also feel underserved and experienced users feel beleaguered by us, maybe opening a list for bridge operators (or an encrypted support address) might be a good experiment. Even if a dedicated list is populated only amateurs it might help us keep running more consistently & intelligently. Yup, my bridge is down for now. Understanding what I'm doing has taken too much time away from other work. I hope to have the bridge up again as soon as I have enough time to work things out on my own or frame intelligent questions. - eliaz ---- gpg 04DEF82B
I don't see any reason why bridge related topics shouldn't be posted to [tor-relays]; they are, after all, a relay. If you're running obfuscated or private bridges you can redact identifiable information and post pseudonymously. I have found the Tor community to be much less abrasive and hostile to those less technically aware than other FOSS communities but I can understand your reluctance to post. It's interesting: the often observed 'proprietary' attitudes in open source users, where the inverse is often the case in proprietary users. This is only my opinion and not representative of the Tor Network/Project or any other mailing list correspondents.
I'd like to help you with your bridge problems; however, I don't run relays in graphical environments and don't use Vidalia. Have you considered launching a Tor cloud instance to run a bridge [*]? It is free (for 12 months on Amazon), simple to setup, and requires very little (if any) maintenance. If you decide you would like to run a bridge on Amazon and have any difficulties, I would be happy to help. You can email me off list if you prefer.
[*] https://cloud.torproject.org/
Hej,
I have found the Tor community to be much less abrasive and hostile to those less technically aware than other FOSS communities but I can understand your reluctance to post.
This was asked after an online news item on "Tor's new software".
What is Tortilla?
A poorly named tool with zero ties to Tor. How is this question related to tor relays?
[uncharitable thought]
If you decide you would like to run a bridge on Amazon and have any difficulties, I would be happy to help. You can email me off list if you prefer.
That is the right attitude and what I think would be the best way to expand Tor.
Good on you Robert
Please! I am not participate in this forum anymore! Any e mail that coming after this will be reported to Uk intelligence police (M15) Be aware pls with all posts or e mails here ! Have a nice weekend to all
On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:18, I beatthebastards@inbox.com wrote:
Hej,
I have found the Tor community to be much less abrasive and hostile to those less technically aware than other FOSS communities but I can understand your reluctance to post.
This was asked after an online news item on "Tor's new software".
What is Tortilla?
A poorly named tool with zero ties to Tor. How is this question related to tor relays?
[uncharitable thought]
If you decide you would like to run a bridge on Amazon and have any difficulties, I would be happy to help. You can email me off list if you prefer.
That is the right attitude and what I think would be the best way to expand Tor.
Good on you Robert
tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
On 1/17/2014 9:24 PM, nano wrote:
On 18/01/2014 12:30 PM, eliaz wrote:
On 1/15/2014 8:19 AM, nano wrote:
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
[...]
I've been thinking for a while that a separate list for *bridge* operators might be a good idea.
[snip]
If other bridge operators also feel underserved and experienced usersfeel beleaguered by us, maybe opening a list for bridge operators (or an encrypted support address) might be a good experiment. Even if a dedicated list is populated only amateurs it might help us keep running more consistently & intelligently. Yup, my bridge is down for now. Understanding what I'm doing has taken too much time away from other work. I hope to have the bridge up again>> as soon as I have enough time to work things out on my own or frame intelligent questions. - eliaz ---- gpg 04DEF82B
I don't see any reason why bridge related topics shouldn't be posted to [tor-relays]; they are, after all, a relay.
[snip]>
I'd like to help you with your bridge problems; however, I don't run relays in graphical environments and don't use Vidalia. Have you considered launching a Tor cloud instance to run a bridge [*]? It is free (for 12 months on Amazon), simple to setup, and requires very little (if any) maintenance. If you decide you would like to run a bridge on Amazon and have any difficulties, I would be happy to help. You can email me off list if you prefer.
I appreciate the offers, but until I catch up on my day job I won't be able to take much advantage of them, and my delays in responding will annoy both of us. And I want to first check out why switching between tor versions in windows hasn't been working before asking questions relevant to tor itself. I hope to be back soon. - eliaz
--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Please! I am not participate in this forum anymore! Any e mail that coming after this will be reported to Uk intelligence police (M15) Be aware pls with all posts or e mails here ! Have a nice weekend to all
On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:30, eliaz eliaz@riseup.net wrote:
On 1/15/2014 8:19 AM, nano wrote:
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote: I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
[snip]
If you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it !
[snip]
And further, i strongly disagree with the text Robert wrote today that the project should provide more material for newbies because there is already more than enough material.
[snip]
I would like to propose a new list which may or may not be called "tor-relays-new" or so. New operators should start there for a certain period of time and if everything seems to be in order they may be transferred to tor-relays.
[snip]
Sebastian,
I respect your opinion and appreciate your frustration borne from the inabilities of less skilled correspondents and their submissions. However, I don't believe running a Tor node, of any kind, requires either "it professionals with years and years of experience" or "serious skills" in system administration.
[snip]
In part, I agree with the sentiment that "[if] you don't know what you are doing, then be honest to yourself and stop doing it"; however, I would instead change the apodosis to: 'seek assistance'. I would find that outcome preferable to ceasing participation entirely. Correspondingly, I consider this mailing list an excellent resource to facilitate said assistance; subscribers will either choose to contribute, or not. Furthermore, more documentation is rarely a bad idea and while limited resources should be prudently managed, I don't believe requests for assistance from mailing list correspondents consume said resources.
[snip]
Nevertheless, subscribers are free to acknowledge mailing list correspondence or ignore it
[snip] In the interest of
full disclosure, I consider myself one of these "new relay operators" [0] so my opinions are most likely affected by bias.
[0] https://atlas.torproject.org/#details/799B025E25850A88CD133276301FAFB731C2EA...
I've been thinking for a while that a separate list for *bridge* operators might be a good idea. I've put effort (and cash) into running a bridge approaching 24/7, at which I was successful with TBB ver 2, but have been frustrated since the advent of browser 3.5 and standalone vidalia. Running the bridge blindly - just loading 3.5 and not trying to assess whether the bridge is working properly, or indeed if it's necessary, hasn't been satisfying. I want to know why/how certain things wok or don't work. I've been conflicted in this; either I run my own experiments, resulting in the bridge being up erratically; or I ask what I can well believe experienced node operators & developers might consider dunderheaded questions. And since bridges are supposed to be secret, I'm not even sure what should or should not beasked in a clear list. I've tried asking tor support via encrypted msgs with mixed results: I can understand that support has more important things to do than reassure me that I'm on the right track. If other bridge operators also feel underserved and experienced users feel beleaguered by us, maybe opening a list for bridge operators (or an encrypted support address) might be a good experiment. Even if a dedicated list is populated only amateurs it might help us keep running more consistently & intelligently. Yup, my bridge is down for now. Understanding what I'm doing has taken too much time away from other work. I hope to have the bridge up again as soon as I have enough time to work things out on my own or frame intelligent questions. - eliaz ---- gpg 04DEF82B
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
tor-relays mailing list tor-relays@lists.torproject.org https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-relays
Hello Fabiano, You should try unsubscribing from the mailing list, I'm not certain M15 can help you with this though. -J
On 01/18/2014 07:08 AM, Fabiano London wrote:
Please! I am not participate in this forum anymore! Any e mail that coming after this will be reported to Uk intelligence police (M15) Be aware pls with all posts or e mails here ! Have a nice weekend to all
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 00:19:13 +1100 nano nanotek@bsdbox.co allegedly wrote:
On 15/01/2014 10:29 PM, Sebastian Urbach wrote:
Good Morning,
I really tried very hard to stay calm but at least someone has to say it. I think operating relays / bridges can be described as a cutting edge job or experience.
[ deletia ]
I expect a bit of resistance and a bit of a shitstorm right now. Please feel free to direct this straight to me and not to the list. I also would like a discussion regarding the facts of the matter to take place on this list very much.
No shitstorm yet.
nano says:
Sebastian,
I respect your opinion and appreciate your frustration borne from the inabilities of less skilled correspondents and their submissions.
[ deletia ]
In the interest of full disclosure, I consider myself one of these "new relay operators" [0] so my opinions are most likely affected by bias.
We have all been "noobs" at something at some time. Personally I have benefited immensely over the course of my life from the the knowledge and experience of others who were generous enough to share with me. In return, I like to think that others may be able to benefit from whatever small ability I may have by sharing on /my/ experience.
I am a firm believer in the maxim that the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask.
Best
Mick ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mick Morgan gpg fingerprint: FC23 3338 F664 5E66 876B 72C0 0A1F E60B 5BAD D312 http://baldric.net
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I -
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